Logos 7 Upgrade


Okay, Logos gave me a credit because I bought version 6 just two days before 7 came out. We knew 6 was afraid of 7, because 7 8 9.

Anyway, the credit was almost completely enough money to get into the Bronze package, meaning I only needed $77 to get all of the features of Logos. Before this, you had to spend thousands to get all of the features in Logos. Now, they’re all available in the Bronze package.

How do you buy this Bible software when it’s so ridiculously expensive? THe pricing is so steep that the average Independent Baptist pastor cannot even dream of affording it. But here’s the trick – the dynamic pricing.

Once you buy something in Logos, they remove the discounted price of that object from the packages. I started out with the free engine, and the $9.99 KIng James. I have only rarely bought anything from Bible companies, because I really believe that the pricing for these things should be much lower. And if Logos ever were to hire me for product innovation or some such job, I would argue vociferously that the King James should be a free download with the engine, because that’s INDUSTRY STANDARD. Logos remains the only company who charges for the KIng James, a royalty free Bible translation.

When I came into a work bonus, and I bought the first package (Baptist Starter), the price of every single Logos package dropped. Their website knew what items I had, and discounted every package to compare to those datasets that I had.

Then of course 7 came out. I upgraded last month. I couldn’t afford much, so I bought the standard package Starter. It was heavily discounted, since I already owned Baptist Starter.

Then just a week ago, I got the postcard in my mailbox, telling me I had a credit if I upgraded before the end of the year. So I called, and upgraded to Standard Bronze. You should have heard the sales rep’s voice when he recommended the Baptist Bronze package, and I told him that it was too over-loaded with Calvinist material and had almost no traditional Baptist material! I think it was the first time that anyone working for Faithlife ever heard the words “Too much Calvinism”, or even the suggestion that Calvinism is not Baptist, or that Baptist is not Calvinism.

The good news is that Logos has fixed everyone’s criticism. Now when you buy Logos, yes… you do own your books. Logos 7 is guaranteed to keep working with new operating systems, and you will always own your library. This is a big deal for them. It means they’re cutting off the robbery they used to do to existing customers who just want to upgrade the package they own without being forced to add many books, a tactic that fills the comment section of their blog routinely with nasty comments.

Now I just have to learn how to take advantage of all the new tools.

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“Open Fire” by Paige Patterson


http://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details.asp?ID=46571

A Southern Baptist seminary president said Nov. 29 that Baptists who adopt Calvinistic theology and practice ought to consider joining another denomination.“I know there are a fair number of you who think you are a Calvinist, but understand there is a denomination which represents that view,” Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, said at the close of Tuesday’s chapel service. “It’s called Presbyterian.”

As a former Southern Baptist, I can say this is “open fire” almost at the very last second before losing the convention forever. There are too many Presbyterians in the SBC holding teaching positions. As I said before, if you’re Calvinist… go get your own convention. There is no such thing as a “Calvinist Baptist”. There is only a Baptist with confused soteriology, or there is Presbyterians.

Other posts on the same topic…

What’s Wrong With Baptists?

Southern Baptists Need Their Sovereign Grace Heritage

Your sermon to listen to courtesy of Marc Monte!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=41706211051

Apostasy in the Christian Church


Apostasy in the Christian Church

Well thought out article. I skimmed it because I’m ridiculously busy this week.

i’ll try to comment on this next week if I can find time.

Prevailing Attitudes


At the turn of the 20th Century, Christianity was in a much better, stronger position than now. Over a century ago, Christians everywhere understood – for the most part – that if your soteriology is wrong, you’re going to Hell.

Soteriology, for those who do not know, is the doctrines of salvation. It’s simple ,really. If you don’t teach people how to get saved, they won’t know. Most people won’t open their Bible, although I’ll say a century ago more people were conversant with the Bible than anywhere else. Over a century ago, if you wanted your children saved, you simply could open the family Bible to John chapter three, and walk away. Sooner or later, they’d see it and read, and get saved, I’ve read of exactly one occasion where a future foreign missionary was saved in exactly that way.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:14-22 (KJV)

The point here being, as this dispensation entered its last era, for the most part, Christianity was adept at at least one thing – they understood how to be saved.

They were blind to one thing, though – the doctrine of separation. Oh, sure, they understood once they got saved to avoid entangling themselves in the things of the world – but they simply trusted blindly all those who name the name of Christ. Methodists trusted Presbyterians, who trusted Baptists, who trusted Lutherans, who trusted….

The one thing they were GOOD at, was noticing when a new group popped up, if they had aberrant doctrine. They WOULD practice separation from those. When Mormons popped up 72 years before that, they immediately understood this was a cult, and that Joseph Smith was a false teacher. Ever read Sherlock Holmes? If you had the collections, you should remember the story where Holmes dismissed the Mormons as a cult, and referred to them as “Jack Mormons from Utah.” Certainly the creator of Sherlock Holmes was not in any way saved, as he was so caught up in Theosophy, witchcraft and every mystic practice he could get his hands on – but even he recognized that Mormons were a cult.

Today, we rush to embrace them.

When the Jehovah’s Witnesses emerged as the Bible Students, Christians everywhere dismissed them as a cult.

Were that we were so wise today.

They, a century ago, were willing to engage in open debates – which people flocked to – with the Church of Christ, who they dubbed “Campbellites”.

Today we can buy t-shirts with the bearded faces of a family of Campbellites, simply because they’re tv stars who publicly stand for the name of Jesus.

It’s a different Jesus, but we don’t care. Hey, I’ve met someone who’s name is Jesus. It’s pronounced Hey-soos in his language, but hey, he’s a Jesus! He’s not the Jesus of the bible. But neither is the Jesus of the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Roman Catholics, or the Campbellites.

Where did they fail a hundred years ago? Simple. They trusted everyone who named the name of Christ.

Point one: We must recognize that not everyone who names the name of Christ is a Christian. If their doctrine does not conform to the Bible in the aspects of salvation, the deity of Christ and the Trinity, then they’re not Christians. They’re probably not saved.

Point Two: We must understand that in the last days heretics and false teachers would DOMINATE Christianity. If you haven’t been paying attention, we’re pretty close to the time of the Rapture. That means of course we’re in the seventh age of Grace, the Laodecian era. That means that obviously then, Christianity is FLOODED with false teachers.

Point Three: If any denomination teaches any other method of salvation other than what is presented in the Bible, they are to be dismissed as a heretic. I don’t care how much you may like them. I can think of some Atheists who are pretty nice guys. But I think we all agree that “ye must be born again”. If anyone teaches any other method for salvation than “ye must be born again”, they’re a heretic.

Why is my blog only one of a very few decrying Messianic Jews? Why is my blog only one of a few calling the Duck Dynasty show a group of heretics?

One Century ago, most Christians understood that Roman Catholics needed to be saved. Lo and behold some Baptist preachers arose who called Catholics “Christians” out of some form of sentimentality, and we fell apart.

Point four: It doesn’t matter what I think. It doesn’t matter what I want to believe or what I choose to believe. If I am saved, then Jesus Christ is my Lord. He says, I do. Bottom line.

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:20 (KJV)

23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 1 Corinthians 7:23 (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)

It’s hard, I know. I would love to be a lovey-dovey-accept everyone Christian. I would love to wallow in Ecumenism, just accept everyone who writes a book or has a tv show about Christianity. But the Bible tells me otherwise. Paul admonishes us otherwise. Peter and John teach us differently. Jesus Christ commands us otherwise.

It’s a fact, that the Lord chooses to reward us for obedience – when we don’t even deserve to be saved in the first place. Rewards ONLY come when you’re doing what the Lord requires.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 2 Timothy 3:13-14 (KJV)

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2 Timothy 3:1-5 (KJV)

If anyone teaches any manner besides “ye must be born again”, they are a heretic. Reject them. “From such, turn away.” If they deny the deity of Christ, Reject them. “From such, turn away.” If they claim to believe in the deity of Christ but deny the virgin birth, they’re liars. You cannot say you believe Jesus is God and yet deny the virgin birth. Reject them. “From such, turn away.” If they preach salvation by works, they deny the cross of Christ. Reject them. “From such, turn away.” If they deny the Trinity, they are heretics. Reject them. “From such, turn away.” If they deny salvation by faith through grace, they deny the cross of Christ. Reject them. “From such, turn away.”

If you agree with the above, then you must reject:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

C. S . Lewis

the “duck Dynasty”

Sid Roth

Kenneth Copeland

Kenneth Hagin

Benny Hinn

Charles Taze Russell

E. W. Kenyon

Joyce Meyers

James Trimm

Batya Wooten

David Stern of the Jewish New Testament

Angus Wooten

Joseph Smith

William Branham

Ellen G. White

F. F. Bosworth

Frederick K. C. Price

Avi Ben Mordecai

and many many others.

Preterism Answered


Preterism is the last of the faulty Rapture doctrines we’ll examine, as we’ve pretty much gotten all of them.

There’s a few more eschatological positions we’ll examine, but this is the last of the “timing” rapture stances.

Preterism comes in all kinds of blends, but we’ll look at two of them – the 70 AD Preterist and the Historicist. Today I’m going to deal with the Preterist position, as surprisingly, it’s growing in popularity.

Preterism comes from one of the words for “before”, preter. The position of all forms of Preterism is that everything in Revelation was already accomplished. Marc Monte dealt with this in one of his sermons, and in a record 60 seconds. His only comment was to explain preterism, and then added, “If this is the Millennium… I am woefully disappointed.”

I am dumbfounded as to the appeal of Preterism, and why it is growing in all forms in popularity. Again, I lay claim to ONE SIMPLE fact – You all are not reading your Bible. You may be opening it, your eyes may be moving on that page, but you’re not reading it.

I’m going to prove that in just a couple of questions. Ready?

  1. how long does the Millennium last?
  2. Does it happen before or after the Tribulation?
  3. Does Jesus Christ return before or after the millennium?
  4. how many people die in the Seven Seals?
  5. Name one church in Revelation that is not condemned.
  6. what colors does the harlot of Babylon wear?
  7. Can a Christian take the mark of the beast?
  8. Is anything living in the seas by the time of Christ’s return?

These are easy questions if you’ve read Revelation. If, on the other hand, you just reluctantly did your “seven pages of devotion reading a day” and never really read your Bible, you’re not going to have a clue.

If you don’t know, the odds are good you may be ripe for being seduced by modern Bible teachers into Preterism.

R. C. Sproul is one of the most well known Preterists today. He’s not a historicist, but rather a 70 AD preterist. The same techniques are used to answer them.

Question one for a Preterist: Do you believe the Bible literally?

Question Two for a Preterist: If yes, how can you possibly think everything in Revelation was literally fulfilled by AD 70?

Question Three for a preterist: If no, how can you prove you’re saved? What other parts of the bible don’t you believe???

These questions have profound influence, as being a Preterist is in that “you’re really starting to scare me about your salvation” category.

Follow my logic. I know with my brain, to me, logic runs like this: 1+1=2 therefore the speed of light is 186,500 miles per second. And so I write some articles that really are over people’s heads sometimes. I want to make sure EVERYONE can follow my logic on this one.

  1. People who are not saved cannot understand the Bible except for passages that would lead you to salvation.
  2. It is evident when these people begin to speak that they are incapable of understanding the Bible
  3. That becomes a warning sign that they are not saved, when they obviously have NO CLUE.
  4. There are millions of Christians who read the book of Revelation and immediately catch on to the three part structure that part of it is what was, part of it is what is, and the vast majority of it (Chapters 4-22) “What must be hereafter”.
  5. There are events in Revelation that cannot be reconciled with history.
  6. There are events in Revelation that are overwhelmingly supernatural, and nothing even remotely like it has happened in history.
  7. How can you place any doctrine of man so highly up that it can become a barrier between the Bible and you?
  8. If you do not believe these events are to be taken literally, then what other parts of the Bible do you allegorize?
  9. Is “Ye must be born again” another one of those areas you allegorize? Or do you take that literally?
  10. How can you look at one passage in Scripture that the Bible does not say is a vision or a parable and say, “I don’t believe that literally” and then look at another passage in Scripture and DO believe that literally?
  11. How can you possibly be sealed with the seal of redemption – the holy Spirit – and look at Revelation and think, “Why, that part must be Rome under Nero!!!” and not have the Holy Spirit in you telling you, “No, you’re wrong – read it again.”
  12. If you can look at Revelation and feel absolutely no leading from the Holy Spirit that your man-made interpretation is completely way off base… what difference is there between you and the unsaved person who cannot understand the Bible? Answer: none. So… are you saved???

I was dumbfounded how furious a preterist got when I questioned his salvation. If you question my salvation, I’m going to get worried, and spend time in prayer – not lash out. If I question your salvation and have valid reasons why, and you erupt in rage… bingo.

First question for a historicist preterist – Why does the interpretation of historic preterists of what passage equals what century never completely agree? If this teaching is the leading of the holy spirit, shouldn’t it agree among all of you?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Revelation 6:12-14 (KJV)

When in history did this happen? It literally calls for islands and mountains to be moved out of their places. This passage has been scoffed at by unbelievers for centuries until the Christmas Tsunami. Geologists report that some islands literally moved slightly out of their position when this happened. If that’s the event you’re discussing, wouldn’t we be in the Seventh seal right now??? Or perhaps the first trumpet. Yet you’re saying all of this was done in times past, and we’re now in the millennium!

Second question:

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8 (KJV)

when in history did 25% of mankind die? To my knowledge, even the Spanish influenza of World War I did not kill 25% of mankind. The black plague in Europe did not kill 25% of all mankind, as it was confined to Europe.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Revelation 7:4-5 (KJV)

find me 12,000 Jews of the tribe of Reuben. After the destruction of Jerusalem, most Jews were taken into slavery, possessions lost. Very few Jews were able to retain their Sefer Toldot, their genealogy lists. Today, there is even less of those. There’s a myth that no Jew today can prove their tribal inheritance – but I know one from Brooklyn that his family still has one. It’s rare, but they do exist. There was a rock star back in the 90’s who even put together a band named after his tribal inheritance – Tribe of Judah.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Revelation 8:7 (KJV)

When in history did this happen, that one third of all trees on earth caught fire? and all grasses? to my knowledge, there has never been worldwide wildfires.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; Revelation 8:8 (KJV)

When in history did this happen? To my knowledge, one third of the oceans have never completely turned to blood.

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Revelation 9:1-11 (KJV)

When in history did demonic locusts ever attack every unbeliever on earth?

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. Revelation 9:17-18 (KJV)

When in history did 200 million demonic horsemen ever kill 33% of mankind? I’ve read a lot of history, and find it fascinating. To kill one third of mankind, it would have had to happen in China, Russia and India, and not just Europe. I’ve read the histories of all three of those countries, and can’t seem to find any record of that happening.

Genghis Khan and his armies rode on horseback, but there was never 200 million of them – nor did their horses breathe fire. And nobody in history ever died from being bitten by a horse tail.

Let’s see – a lot of preterists try to say this is fulfilled by an Arab chieftain who conducted open warfare to force people to convert to his new religion. I read a lot of stories about them, and you’d think that if his horses breathed fire, and bit with their tails, someone would have written that down.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:16-18 (KJV)

When in history did any world leader cause everyone to be tattooed on their right hand or forehead? it never happened. Did Caesar Nero ever do this? No.

So it’s not Nero.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:3-4 (KJV)

What world leader was ever killed by a wound to their head, and then rose from the dead? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Revelation 16:3 (KJV)

I had fish the other night for dinner… I can pretty much guarantee that all the living things in the oceans are still alive. So this hasn’t happened yet.

Things are even worse for the standard Preterist, as they insist all this must be fulfilled before AD 70. Um, I’ve read a lot of history. If I can’t find any of this happening between AD 30 and today, I certainly am not going to find it in the much narrower space of time between AD 30 and AD 70!

The Bible says all this must happen in a specific number of days that amounts to seven years…. how do you guys answer that?

There is NO WAY you can believe the Bible, and be a preterist.

None.

Pre-Wrath Rapture Answered


Yesterday and the day before, I finally took on and demolished all the arguments supporting the Post-trib and Mid-trib raptures. I dealt with all their proof texts, including Galatians 3:28, 1 Corinthians 15:51, Matthew 24, Revelation 19 and Mark 13.

Today’s going to be short. So short if you blink you miss it.

The Pre-Wrath of Marv Rosenthal is really not Rosenthal’s position. He first got it reading it elsewhere. Unfortunately, his theory – now widely accepted by Independent Baptists – doesn’t hold ANY more water than a pot with a hole in it.

Rosenthal holds that the rapture must come AFTER the sixth seal, because what comes next is called “The wrath of God.”

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 11:18 (KJV)

Well, that would kind of make sense except…

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

That’s the sixth seal. If you’re going to position the Rapture as being before the wrath, then it would have to be after the 5th seal, a position for which there is no scriptural basis.

There’s only one more faulty Rapture position, and I’m dealing with it tomorrow.

Mid Trib Rapture Answered


I’m going to make this one short and quick.

Mid Trib is vanishingly similar to “Pre-wrath”. I can demolish the Pre-wrath argument of Marv Rosenthal in just a few sentences. It’s too easy.

Most of the arguments I used yesterday apply to this one as well.

Galatians 3:28 is talking about faith, the law and salvation, and adoptionism. In other words, can a Jew or a Gentile be saved by keeping the law? by no means.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are talking to Jews, not Gentiles.

The supposed Matthew 24 verse that most mid,post and pre-wrath believers say is talking about a rapture is really talking about the gathering of saints in Heaven to return to the earth for the day of vengeance of our God. for Armageddon.

What do you have left to justify your mid-tribulation rapture?

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31 (KJV)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV)

If we assume these are all the same trumpet, then it would make sense.

But we see that a trumpet is blown in heaven, and the saints are gathered to return to earth for Armageddon. So, the seventh trumpet in Revelations is not the last trumpet.

Whoops! That kind of rules out the “Mid-trib” position, as well as pre-wrath… as both of them postulate that the rapture occurs during the seven trumpet judgments.

This is an error, as we’ve already seen yesterday.

If we compare it to Matthew 24, we find ONE MORE trumpet blast, the calling of the saints in Heaven. So, if we go solely by the timing of the last trumpet blast…Post Trib would be a more defensible position.

Except it’s not. Why?

The saints are in heaven. this trumpet blast would have to take place in Revelation 19.

The raptured saints must take place in the believer’s judgment.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Revelation 4:4 (KJV)

I don’t know where you learned your math, or where you get your Bible, but 4 comes before 19. In Revelation 4, we see that the 24 elders have crowns. They’ve already gone through the believer’s judgment, and gotten rewards.

And revelation 19:1-9 is the Marriage supper of the lamb. Believers are supposed to be there. Revelation 11-14 is the opening of the dor in heaven. When is this door opened the first time?

Revelation 4:1.

So if the door opening is the saints returning to earth… wouldn’t the first opening of the door be the Rapture?

uh, yeah.

So, now you have to defend the mid-tribulation belief from the Bible without using Galatians 3:28, Mark 13, Matthew 24 or 1 Corinthians 15.

go ahead. At least the mid-trib view used one more verse as a proof text than the post-trib did.

Good luck. you can’t. Make sure you review yesterday’s post so you can see how I dealt with all the arguments.