Soul Sleep Part 2


I assumed I was done with soul sleep when I finished my article on the SDA.

Incidentally, Nobody who was SDA ever challenged the first point of my articles. As a matter of fact, they recieved zero challenges.

Until a gentleman who is SDA tried emailing me, and made his first point, and doggeldly refused to give ground despite my citing several passages of Scripture, and asking him point blank 3 times if he was SDA. He simply kept repeating point one. I should put his email exchange online, with his name and email address redacted, because they’re such a classic case of someone in a cult repeating their pet doctrine ad nauseum when you defeat their argument right out of the gate.

I kind of feel like that now. I’ve met TWO Christians who believe in soul sleep. I gave the first one 2 Cor 5 as I described it yesterday. That christian simply repeated herself. Okay, I can see that you chose your doctrines, and you’re not going to let inconvenient things like, I don’t know, Scripture change your mind.

The second one actually had scriptural reasons why she believed in soul sleep – except it was 2 Cor. 5! She moved the “Rather” into the second half of the verse, and triumphantly pointed out Paul was saying “I would RATHER be with the Lord, but I can’t, because we sleep!”

I immediately asked, “you checked this against Luke 16?”

Two weeks later she simply repeated the argument, and said she hadn’t read anything in the Bible to change her mind.

So, the answer to that would be – no, she never checked it against Luke 16.

This is the problem we run into while contending for the faith. Sometimes, we have to answer other Christians who’ve fallen for the doctrines of devils. You can’t answer a Christian the same way you’d answer a Mormon or Roman Catholic apologist. A fellow Christian is someone who you answer more gently. I was listening to a sermon yesterday in which a missiionary to cults was explaining how to answer mormons (because I’m still not happy with my exchanges with the Mormons!), in which it was pointed out there are two kinds of Mormons – those who fon’t know they’re in a cult, and those who do know and continue anyway.

It’s like Messianics – those who don’t know they’re in a cult, and those that do, but continue anyway.

So, let’s look at other verses that answer soul sleep.

SDA and other soul sleep believers will sometimes break one of the cardinal rules of bible interpretation by citing Ecclesiastes.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)

We have to be wary when citing Ecclesiastes, which is a book of fleshly wisdom. It’s like quoting from Job, where 3/4’s of the doctrines espoused there are in error, and God finally answers with His wisdom.

The answer to that is the very next verse!

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Ecclesiastes 9:5-7 (KJV)

The understanding of Ecclesiastes, as in a couple of the psalms, contrasts living, where one has your only chances to earn rewards for heaven, and the state of the physical body after death.

AS for the soul… let’s look at Ecclesiastes!

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

Oh! So, the soul goes back to… God!

One pf the points that was raised was that none have ascended save the Son of Man – Jesus. None have seen the Father except Jesus.

So the soul sleep in the grave. That’s why we have the Rapture, so the Lord can wake the dead!

That’s a completely erroneous conclusion based upon – I have to say it – tunnel vision and isogesis. Does the speaker forget that Paul arose and went to heaven – whether in the body or not he could not say???

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. 19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah. 20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death. Psalm 68:18-20 (KJV)

This one was forgotten about.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV)

This teaches the understanding that before the death of Christ, the dead were in two places – Paradise (Abraham’s bosom) and Hell. Both were deep in the earth, and both were apparently right next to each other. The dead could see one another, talk to one another. But Luke 16 reveals there was a great gulf fixed between the dead, and Abraham and Lazarus were unable to cross and rescue the rich man, who was in torments.

Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68 teach us that Jesus Christ, after He died, went into Abraham’s Bosom, and took those awaiting, and “Ascended on high”, bringing them to heaven. No man HAD seen the Father but the son, and no man had ascended save the Son – but that ended in AD 30. Now, instead of journeying DOWN when a believer dies, we ascend into Heaven.

And Ephesians also speaks of the rewards. That’s great if you get gifts and rewards while you’re unaware of them and sleeping in the grave! Clearly, we are to be awake and aware to receive them.

Paul said, “to be absent from the body is to be Present with THE LORD”. This means you are in the Lord’s presence!

20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 1 Kings 17:20-22 (KJV)

29 And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite, Genesis 49:29 (KJV) 10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. Judges 2:10 (KJV) 20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again. 2 Kings 22:20 (KJV) 28 Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again. 2 Chronicles 34:28 (KJV)

If death is a sleep, then this creates problems. Lazarus came forth, the child;s soul came into him again, the righteous are gathered unto their fathers.

Sounds like a journey. You have to be aware to be in a journey. Otherwise – you’re aware of nothing. you know nothing. The Bible would refer to this as “thou shalt sleep and awaken on the last day.”

If the Bible describes death as a journey, we should as well. Jacob and the other Old Testament saints describe being “gathered unto their fathers”. This means their fathers will be aware – and they will be as well! – that they are together. A journey, unto my fathers, willl be with me, I will go to him…. The Bible uses this language. “Bury me next to my wife” means one thing, but “was gathered unto his fathers” says something completely different! They are together, meaning they are aware of each other.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:5-7 (KJV)

The final point is, there is a great number of people present in heaven throughout Revelation. A great number. And they are all aware.

the very presence of them in Heaven contradicts soul sleep. the very fact they cast their crowns on the glassy sea, and cry out praises to God, and even beseech God for vengeance on those who killed them! – all speak to the dead being aware.

We derive our doctrines from the Bible. We read them, compare them diligently against each other. WE derive no doctrine from unclear verses, but rather, from clear verses first, and unlcear verses then shed additional light. But when we read many, many verses describing the dead being aware, and four or five unclear verses – we go by the more clear and obvious verses first.

So why the unclear verses?

They shed additional light. The very verses that the cults misunderstand help us to differentiate between breathing and soul, between the state of the flesh and the state of the soul.

Read your Bible. Study your Bible. Take it literally. Compare scripture with scripture. Clear verses are taken first, and unclear second.

A good warning sign is this – if al of Christianity reads their Bible and says “a” and you read it and it says “B” – be careful. Start studying. Compare. Let the Bible choose your doctrine, and not the other way around.

Soul Sleep Refuted


I thought I’d deal with this one again, since this one keeps popping up.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)

Now, I’ve got to deal with 2 Corinthians 5:8 word by word, as I actually had someone cite this verse to PROVE soul sleep, which absolutely dumbfounded me as the worst case whatsoever of Biblical Isogesis I have truly ever seen.

The first thing we do is… read the verses.

Okay, verse 6 says if we are absent from the Lord we are present in the body. You can’t be in Heaven and on earth at the same time unless you’re Jesus Christ.

Looking at verse 8, it seems to contrast verse 6, unless I’m really missing something.

To be absent from the Lord is to be present with the body. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

That’s what I’m getting, aren’t you?

Well, not soul Sleep advocates.

THey see this as Paul saying, “i would rather be present with the Lord, but it’s impossible, so I won’t.”

Okay, it’s time to open our Textus Receptus now! Going to Accordance, I looked this up. Here it is.

θαρροῦμεν δέ, καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος, καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν Κύριον.

“Uh, I don’t read Greek. What’s it say?”

You do know I’m teaching Greek, right? If you’d started in December, you’d be up to snuff by now!

Anyway, here it is parsed. Parsing, in this case, really robs us of our major tools, which is tense-voice-mood. But I’ll get back to that.

We are confident G2292 θαῤῥέω tharrheo

I say and G1161 δέ de

– G2532 καί kai

willing G2106 εὐδοκέω eudokeo

rather G3123 μᾶλλον mallon

to be absent G1553 ἐκδημέω ekdemeo

from G1537 ἐκ, ἐξ ek, ex

the body G4983 σῶμα soma

and G2532 καί kai

to be present G1736 ἐνδημέω endemeo

with G4314 πρός pros

the Lord G2962 κύριος kurios

Ready? Here’s the analyzsis. And.. if you were reading in in context in the English, you’d have gotten all this!

Confident and Willing are linked by Greek tense. θαρροῦμεν δέ, καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν oumen and oumen. They are linked by Greek tense, which we see in the suffix.

ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι are linked by tense. Absent and present.

Paul cannot be saying, “I would rather be present, but I can’t.” The construction of this is contrasting – just like in the English – absent and present, τοῦ σώματος and τὸν Κύριον, from the body and with the Lord.

Here’s what it would boil down to – exactly what is written in the King James Bible. To be at home in the body is to be absent from the Lord. While Paul is with the Corinthians, he is not physically with Jesus Christ, which is where he’d rather be. I get that from reading verse 6. Anyone disagree so far?

Paul then shows, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, that he is willing and confident to be absent from the body amd present with the LOrd.

Next we turn to punctuation. The verse is split in two by two marked thoughts. The thought process is shown by the very punctuation of the King James.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV)

the word rather is in the first half of the sentnence. If the Bible had meant to say “I would rather be with the Lord”…

…then the verse would say that. The word “rather” would be in the second half of the verse and connected to “present”, and not connected to “absent”.

To say this is to separate 5:8 from 5:6, and the apparent contrast and the entire context.

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:1-11 (KJV)

The entire context of the verse (rule 1, read the Bible and accept what it says, rule 2, read in context, rule 3 compare spiritual things with spiritual) is that if we die, we have a place prepared for us (verse 1). We cannot wait to be there, because when we are there we will be clothed in immortality and glory (verses 2-4). We have been given the down paymentof the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of eternal life (verse 5). While we are at home in the body, we are absent from the LOrd – but we walk by faith in eternal life, not by any demonstrateable proof. Thus we have confidence and are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. (verse 8) Thus, we labor whether in the body or not to be accepted of the Lord.

WAIT!

Verse 9 of itself crushes the soul sleep argument. 9 “Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.”

How can you labor while you are absent (dead) if you are UNAWARE IN THE GRAVE?

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)

The entire soul sleep argument is put aside once and for all reading Luke 16.

Lazarus and the rich man are dead. Abraham is dead.

This is not a parable, even though every commentary seems to call it that. David Cloud points out that Abraham’s name and Lazarus’s name are mentioned. The only name not mentioned is the rich man.

Names are never mentioned in parables. Luke 16 is a real account.

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS. Some claim the story in Lk. 16:19-31 about the rich man in Hell is a parable. This is usually claimed by those who deny that Hell is a place of eternal torment, or by those who believe in Soul Sleep. The Seventh-day Adventists are an example of this. They claim that the fire and other descriptions of Hell are not real. We know that this was not a parable for the following reasons: (1) Christ used the proper names of two people, Lazarus and Abraham, and this He never did with parables. (2) The description of Hell in this passage corresponds with Christ’s descriptions of Hell in other passages (Mk. 9:44,46,48). (3) There is no indication that this is a parable. It is not called a parable and does not have any of the key expressions associated with true parables (such as “like,” “as,” “like unto,” or “likened unto.” (David Cloud, Way of Life Encyclopedia)

 

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

If the soul sleeps until the Rapture… how then was the thief on the cross with Jesus Christ in Paradise?

The Bible teaching on this is plain. Upon death (the separation of the body from the spirit)… we go to Heaven… or Hell.

We are aware. The souls in Heaven rejoice and praise God.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:9-11 (KJV)

Those in Hell raise their eyes, crying out in torment and agony.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10 (KJV)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24 (KJV)

Soul Sleep is not Biblical.

Signs of the Times


Evangelicals have begun to oppose the Bible.

Evangelicals have begun to link arms with the unsaved.

Evangelicals are beginning to reject Fundamentalists, in favor of the unSaved, such as those who sprinkle babies and call it salvation. Such as Mormons. Such as Catholics.

We hear that over a billion people are Christians, and we assume that means people who understant “ye must be born again”.

While in Seminary, my teacher asked the rhetorical question of how many people were saved? He guessed 5%, and everyone in the class was scandalized.

I took the Operation World manual, and took their statistics. It was very simple. I took out all the denominations that assume you are predestined to be saved. Why? Because by the second generation, they are relying on their infant baptism as a sign of their “election”.

I took out all the Protestant denominations that believe that being baptized saves you.

I took out the Mormons.

I took out the Roman Catholics.

It left Charismatics and Baptists. I didn’t take out any of those numbers, because I was estimating a “fudge factor” of, “Some of those Protestants must have gotten saved despite their denominations’ stand”.

I ended up with 1.67%, if I recall correctly.

Right around 85 million people.

I did the statistics in reverse, and ended up with the same number. And now I’m thinking I was optimistic.

With that in mind, let’s look at the problem – Evangelicals prefer the company of all those people the Bible rules out as being saved.

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:1 (KJV)

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 15:19 (KJV)

The last verse is the bottom line. If you’re an Evangelical Christian, and you reject Fundamentalist as “pharisees”, and use phrases like “I don’t view the Bible as the fourth member of the Trinity”…

The Bible is saying you many not be saved.

Just saying.

Sufficiency of Scripture


One of the hallmarks of cults is the introduction of other writings they try to add to the 66 books of the Bible, and/or other writings they claim is equal to or over that of the Bible.

The Watchtower Society uses the classic dodge of claiming to be “Bible alone”, then turns around and says it is a sin to interpret the Bible without consulting the latest version of the Watchtower Society’s writings.

The average Messianic “Jew” has usually about 71 books they place in the Canon, the exact books of which are hotly contested, depending on whom you speak to. They are almost unanimous on the accepting of the book of Enoch, a Ethiopian pseudopigrapha estimated around 700 AD  which claims to be the source of the original quote from the Bible attributed to Enoch.

Roman Catholics add the Apocryphal books, which were never accepted as canonical by the Jews, and indeed were not officially described by Rome as Canon until the Council of Trent, over 1400 years after the canon was sealed and complete.

Other false religions take the cue that somehow, against impossible odds, some unknown person (we’ll call him “Fred”) searched out every text of the Bible at some point in time (they all argue about when it happened, but they’re just SURE it happened, despite a complete lack of any evidence to suggest it ever happened, and mountains of evidence against it possibly happening), and then somehow edited them in such a way that nobody ever noticed the editings. It’s a silly theory in that there in reality was no autograph (original document) of the Bible, but rather, 66 individual books which were written in diverse times and places. By the time Revelation was written, the original manuscript of Genesis was long since decayed into dust. And I dare say that the original manuscript of Revelation was probably sewn into a codex containing copies of Thessalonians, Roman and Hebrews, as well as copies of the Gospels.

This isn’t a problem, as the Bible refers to copies of the Scripture as Scripture.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV)

I seriously doubt that Timothy’s family would have had the inestimable wealth of owning the “original Manuscripts” all these Bible Deniers claim to have faith in the inerrency and inspiration of. My King James Bible is as much Scripture as is the paper that John wrote Revelation on in the Greek.

If Timothy grew up as a child knowing the Scriptures and all he had was the copies, then it’s good enough. There’s no mention of “tradition” in those three verses, therefore the writings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the three added books of the Mormons, the book of Enoch, the Roman Magisterium, the heavily plagiarized writings of Ellen G.  White and all the other pretenders to Scripture are not scripture either.

The Bible is your sole and final authority of faith and practice. Every Christian requires only the Bible.

Redeeming the Time


16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Ephesians 5:16-20 (KJV)

Christians,

This is the time. Seriously. I am becoming more and more convinced that the Rapture of the Christians is nearing. Many of you have blogs… this is the time to get serious about this.

Contend earnestly for the faith. Witness to the lost. Try to reach those who call themselves Christians, whose entire claim for a hope in Heaven but who actually claim nothing but a wet forehead as a baby. Try to reach those who think they are a god, and can speak things into existence. Try to reach those who believe that the Watchtower Society is God’s faithful servant on this earth. Try to reach those who believe that Joseph Smith was visited by an Angel who used to be a man named Moroni. Try to reach those who believe they have to keep the laws of Moses to be saved. Try to reach those who think “the Sunday Sabbath is the number of the beast”. Try to reach those who think Hinduism is the way. Who think their Buddhist faith will get them reborn if they redeem enough karma points. Try to reach those who think the vibration of cosmic crystals will allow them to ascend into a higher order of sentient being. Try to reach those who think, “My whole family is Baptist, so I guess I go to heaven too…”

You’re going to get arguments. You’re going to offend many. You’re going to risk a lot of heartache just to finally reach one person – but that one person will avoid Hell forever, and that’s the point.

And you may be planting a seed for when (after we disappear) they may wake up and realize, “This was real, and I just missed it.”

But if you do nothing… they all are lost. Condemned.

Redeem the time, for the days are evil.

Messianic Judaism 56 – The Oral Torah


9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel. Deuteronomy 31:9 (KJV)

3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself: 1 Kings 2:3 (KJV)

The issue of the Oral Torah is one that few Messianics bother with. Most Messianics simply refuse the Oral Torah. No issues.

But if you become one of those Messianics who follow the Oral Torah, then be prepared – you’re on a roughly one year countdown of denying Christ. It won’t take long. Some take as long as three years, hovering in the emotionally painful time of wallowing between the Oral Torah and the Written Torah. Eventually, conversion to Judaism or a return to Judaism if you’re Jewish is not far behind.

The Oral torah is a major danger point. Any kind of dedicated study of the Talmud leads to acceptance of the Talmud, which leads to following of the Talmud.

If the Oral Torah was real… wouldn’t they be mentioned in those verses I just quoted? Yes? No? Why is it ignored as if it did not exist?

Because it didn’t. It started in the Maccabean period as traditions of the elders, something the Lord makes mention of. He makes no acceptance of that oral Torah. Instead, the Lord asks several times, “Have ye not read?” or “is it not written?”

The vast majority of the Oral Torah comes about centuries after Jesus Christ.

There’s no validity for the existence of the Oral Torah. An open minded reading of the Talmud reads like this – a group of men who have absolutely no idea what the Bible literally means, so they sit and make up stories, come up with fanciful allegorical interpretations, argue with each other’s interpretations, and then a building upon it.

That’s how it read to me when I was in Chabad. That’s how it reads to me today. I remember reading the Talmud back then and thinking, “I must be stupid. I must be missing something. Everyone talks about how difficult it is to understand it, yet it looks easy to understand to me!”

Basically, you take the Talmud seriously. What it says is what it means.

But you’re not allowed to interpret what the Bible says in the same manner. It has to be allegorical. And you have to take the Rabbi’s word for it that the Talmudic Sages possessed insight you do not.

I’ve got problems with that. Because if you can’t interpret the Bible without the Talmud, you’re placing the Talmud over the Bible. That’s like any other cult, that places their writings above the Bible, like Roman Catholicism or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

This is how they keep Judaism Jewish. It’s like the Sanhedrin knew if Israel accepted Jesus, they’d be out of a job. So the Pharisees won, by writing their special texts that you needed a “teacher” to understand, that kept you blindly following an allegorical interpretation of the Bible. And as I’ve said before, the members of a religion that takes the Bible allegorically are slaves to the very teachers that possess the key to the allegory.

If you’re a messianic, RUN NOW. Get out of that cult. It’s not Christianity, it’s a Christ-denying cult. It may well be that Messianic Judaism is the synagogue of satan.

Jehovah’s Witnesses Answered – clear light


I first addressed the JW’s about a year and a half ago. The pages still get visited by Witnesses who are starting to suspect that everything that the Watchtower society tells them is not true.

They’re right.

Actually, very little of what the Watchtower Society tells them is true.

One of the watchtower buzzwords is “clear light”. If you’re former Watchtower, you may know that phrase. “clear light” is the theory that the watchtower society operated in darkness at its beginning, but the day is growing, and now they see with more light than at the beginning.

um… if that’s the best you can do for “we messed up, we contradicted ourselves, and now we have to try to explain ourselves somehow.”

Where in the Bible do we see this teaching? Nowhere.

Well, they justify it by citing Proverbs 4:18, which does contain the phrase “clear light.” In modern perversions of the Bible. THe King James cites it more accurately…

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Proverbs 4:18 (KJV)

“The path of the just.” let’s look at that  phrase first. This means those who pursue God. This is talking about ACTIONS. If you’re seeking after righteousness, once you’re born again, you walk in more and more righteousness.

It refers to behaviour. It refers to Godliness. It refers to growing in sanctification after salvation. it does not anywhere speak of “understanding of the Bible.”

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. Isaiah 2:5 (KJV)

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 8:12 (KJV)

9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. John 11:9 (KJV)

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. John 12:35 (KJV)

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Ephesians 5:8 (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7 (KJV)
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.John 11:10 (KJV)
So, let’s apply John 11:10  to this Watchtower society understanding of this meaning as they apply it, and see how they do.
“But if any man cannot understand the Bible, he is doomed, because he doesn’t understand the Bible.”
Okay, that makes zero sense. So you’re saying that “Pastor” Russell – who was never ordained – understood the Bible LESS clearly than the current President of the WatchTower Society?
Yes, that’s what they’re saying.
So, what does this do to the essential JW doctrine of the Investigative Judgment? You know, the story that in the 19th Century Jesus Christ supposedly locked himself in the Holy of Holies and began to read the writings of all Christians denominations, and ruled that the Watchtower Society was the most correct?
Well, it trashes that theory. Completely.
Because if they walk with the most light now, why would the Lord do this back in 1874 or whenever they’re saying now it would happen? Why would the Lord pronounce “The Finished Mystery” the most correct book of all books?
“Well, they’re walking in darkness, and don’t have all their writings together, but hey, I’m feeling generous today, so…”
Nope. Not buying it.
Look, the Finished Mystery is either the most correct book as you put it…
Or its not, and the Bible is the most correct book.
I’m going with option #2 there.

You should too.