Points so far:
- The tribulation has a number of functions: the pouring out of God’s wrath, the returning of God’s focus from the Gentile churches back to the Jews, the return of Christ as King, and the final defeat and punishment of Satan and the fallen angels
- God has never punished believers along with the wicked, but always taken the believers out of the picture before pouring out His wrath.
- the only exception was the Jews in Egypt during the ten plagues, and as a whole, the Jewish people were not saved until the last judgment, death of the firstborn, when the blood was applied to the doorposts.
- All the prophecies to Israel must still be fulfilled.
- Preterism is unBiblical
- “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” Mark 13:32 (KJV) If the Rapture occurs at any time except for before the Tribulation, then we pretty much would know the day and hour.
- Dispensationalism shows that God dealt with the Jewish people for 2,000 years and right now is dealing with the Gentiles in the Christian age of Grce.
- Matthew 24 is speaking to a Jewish audience, which is proved by the use of the words “The temple”, “The elect”, and “Sabbath day”
- Gentiles do not keep the Sabbath. Jews do.
- “The gathering from the four corners of heaven” is the return of Christ.
- The last few verses of Matthew 24 ARE referring to the rapture. So, then if there is pictured a “Gathering from the four corners of heaven” in Matthew 24, it stands to reason the Bible is teaching they all were previously brought to heaven.
- The book of Revelation should be read literally until the Bible specifically tells you not to.
- Belief in the Pre-trib rapture is often a litmus test for how doctrinally correct you are. wavering in that doctrinal stand is a hint there may be other areas of doctrinal error creeping in.
- Departure from a correct understanding of a single Biblical doctrine usually is quickly followed by others, until one is an apostate.
- Amillennialism is a denial of the literal words of the Bible.
- the method of calculcatin the number of the Beast is called Gematria, but it should really be avoided as it can lead to divining and witchcraft, which are forbidden in the Bible.
- Margaret MacDonald’s infamous visions were post trib. so is it possible that the post-tribbers all got their doctrine from the visions of a Scottish girl in 1850?
- There are no quotes or mention of the Irvingites – who were all post trib – in John Darby’s writings
- It took Darby a few years to develop his dispensational doctrines. If he was getting them from the Irvingites, why not just a few months?
- There are no quotes nor mention of any of the Irvingites in Darby’s writings.
- The Bible says we know not the day nor hour of the Lord’s return, the Lord will return as a thief, and that we will be kept from the hour of trial and temptation. These biblical statements are irreconcilable with any view other than Premillennial, Dispensational, Pre-trib rapture doctrines
I’m going to have to take a day or two to deal with Marv Rosenthal’s pre-wrath position, since so many Independent Baptists believe this. Which is strange, because I read my Bible literally, and it seems to me the evidence of a pre-trib rapture is overwhelming.
Everyone knows what the pre-wrath position is, but I’ll state it clearly – the Pre-wrath position believes that the seven seals and the seven trumpets are… the wrath of the Antichrist, not the wrath of God or the Lamb.
Where he gets that from, I don’t know. The Bible doesn’t say that. I just looked at several Bible translations, and only the “God’s Word” mistranslation takes the word “wrath” out of Revelation 6:16 & 17.
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:16-17 (KJV)
This is the SIXTH SEAL. This is far earlier into the Great Tribulation than Rosenthal places his pre-wrath rapture. And already the Bible calls this seal the wrath of the lamb.
If the seven seals are the wrath of the ANTICHRIST, then why is it the Lord has to open the seals? Shouldn’t it be the antichrist opening them? Why is no one else worthy to open them???
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:1-5 (KJV)
Sorry, on its face, this seems to be telling us this bound scroll is God’s. Certainly the Antichrist is not holy – far from it! I, a sinful man, would no doubt be more than worthy to open a book written by the Antichrist! So, the very need for someone to be worthy to open it shows it is a book from God.
6 And Jeremiah said, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 7 Behold, Hanameel the son of Shallum thine uncle shall come unto thee, saying, Buy thee my field that is in Anathoth: for the right of redemption is thine to buy it. 8 So Hanameel mine uncle’s son came to me in the court of the prison according to the word of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the word of the LORD. 9 And I bought the field of Hanameel my uncle’s son, that was in Anathoth, and weighed him the money, even seventeen shekels of silver. 10 And I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances. 11 So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open: 12 And I gave the evidence of the purchase unto Baruch the son of Neriah, the son of Maaseiah, in the sight of Hanameel mine uncle’s son, and in the presence of the witnesses that subscribed the book of the purchase, before all the Jews that sat in the court of the prison. 13 And I charged Baruch before them, saying, 14 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Take these evidences, this evidence of the purchase, both which is sealed, and this evidence which is open; and put them in an earthen vessel, that they may continue many days. 15 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Houses and fields and vineyards shall be possessed again in this land. Jeremiah 32:6-15 (KJV)
It is theorized that the seven seals represent God’s ownership of the earth, and God taking it back from anyone who mistakenly thought it belonged to them. It’s roughly akin to leaving your home, going abroad, and coming home to find squatters living in your home. You get angry, and cast them out.
There is also the issue of unrepentent sin, and men who have rejected God’s free offer of salvation for centuries. God’s patience has run out. So am I to assume that while all this is happening, the Antichrist is executing his wrath on the earth?
And that brings up another point. the Antichrist is rapidly becoming the world ruler, He’s getting everything he wants. Why is he filled with wrath? He’s not possessed physically by Satan yet.
And how does the Antichrist get so much power he can produce earthquakes, blood, hail, fire, devastation? The divine punishments in the Great Tribulation are going from things that look and seem natural – but very intense – to obviously supernatural less than halfway through the Tribulation.
Let’s look at them, and ask at what point do we have to stop assuming that a human being can produce these?
- death of the martyrs, martyrs cry out in heaven
- earthquakes, sky turns black, stars fall from skies, winds ceasse, servants of God labeled in foreheads
- seven trumpets are opened
- hail, fire blood, one third of all vegetation destroyed in wildfires
- mountain of fire falls into seas, one third of all ocean life dies
- wormwood, all waters become bitter, men die
- demon locusts
- demonic horsemen slay a third of mankind
- seven vials are released.
there you go. so, at what point do we have to finally say, “This is beyond the power of any living man”?
Rosenthal attributes all of this to the antichrist and Satan. I’m going to say pretty boldly, I don’t think Satan has this kind of power. While he is an Angel, and phenomenally powerful – I don’t think Satan has the power to release even seal number 1. I believe Satan has constantly pushed forward his candidates, but until the Lord opens the first Seal – they remain just men.
So, realistically, EVEN THE FIRST SEAL IS BEYOND THE ABILITY OR POWER OF EITHER MEN OR SATAN!
Don’t you think if Satan could have released the Antichrist on his own, it would have happened already??? What’s he waiting for, TV coverage? He already owns all the tv networks.
So the very first premise of Rosenthal’s (the seals and the trumpets are the Antichrist’s wrath), as well as the second (they are caused by the antichrist), are both groundless.