Mormonism Answered 4


         13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15 (KJV)

As you can see, God will not ever command mankind to do that which is sin.

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Deuteronomy 18:10 (KJV)

14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deuteronomy 18:14 (KJV)

6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 2 Chronicles 33:6 (KJV)

The issue here is… Joseph Smith did two things to find and translate the plates that are forbidden in Scripture. The seeing stone was divination, sorcery.

26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Leviticus 19:26 (KJV)

To use the seer stone to translate the Golden Plates (why is this never shown in official LDS artwork?) was forbidden by Scripture.

That leaves the LDS with a huge problem, because Joseph Smith didn’t know any Reformed Egyptian, and had never studied it. Not to mention he couldn’t study it, so no failure on his part, as nobody on earth knows it, and is qualified to teach it – as it is a non-existant language.

Before I return to the issue of using sorcery, which is forbidden by God, When did Reformed Egyptian “come to pass”? The ancient kingdoms of Egypt spoke Egyptian. When the two houses united, they spoke Egyptian. When the lower kingdoms existed, they spoke Egyptian. It actually continued until they switched to speaking Arabic after the fall of Egypt. Forgive me please for not citing dates, as I don’t have my timelines of the middle east on this computer.

So if Reformed Egyptian came to pass, it would have had to come when the Israelites came across the oceans to America, as explained in the Book of Mormon.

Except they wouldn’t have spoken Egyptian. They would have spoken Hebrew, and would have written in the Paleoglyphic lettering, and not the Square script Canaanean lettering we use today for Hebrew.

These were Jews, not Egyptians. And it’s the funniest thing, but since the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai (well, ever since Abraham, actually) the Jews have spoken Hebrew. Before that, the Gentile ancestors of Abraham going back to Shem, up through Noah to Adam all spoke Hebrew. So, Jews have been speaking the original language ever since the creation of Man in the garden.

Yes, I know, European Jews ceased to use Hebrew as a conversational language for centuries. But when they prayed – it was Hebrew. When they read from the Torah, it was Hebrew. They still possessed Hebrew. And the time of Jews creating Ladino and Yiddish for everyday language was actually only about a thousand years ago. Before that was Aramaic, which only really happened around the Second Temple period.

So, if Jews had left Israel in the time mentioned in the Book of Mormon and came to America, they would have simply dropped any Canaanean languages they’d learned, because well… there were no Canaaneans around! They would have continued to write, speak and teach Hebrew.

So, Joseph Smith was quite simply using a forbidden method to translate a non existant language – whether seer stone or special “Urim-thummin spectacles” – to translate plates whose very existence is questionable, and not in the manner in which you’re shown in dramas, videos and movies.

And since they’re about Native American tribes, why Reformed Egyptian, and not Navajo, or Cherokee, or any of the Seneca languages?

those copies of “reformed” egyptian show mostly inverted English letters, mixed with some Greek and one or two Hebrew letters. Now, how did Roman characters and Greek get mixed in to writings done in 660 BC? These languages and alphabets would not exist in those forms for several centuries!

My Mormon friend, it’s time to start asking questions. Have you been lied to? I’m telling you, yes – you’ve been lied to.

Smith had to claim they were written in another language, so he thought quickly and called it Egyptian. Next, he had to make it more exotic, and specify it was some kind of Egyptian nobody had heard of, to prevent anyone from insisting he take the plates to a Museum. That would mean he’d have to produce them. And since the eyewitnesses of these plates claim to have seen them with a spiritual eye (in other words, imagination), that means we actually don’t have eyewitnesses who literally saw and physically examined them.

So, the LDS claim to “Another Gospel of Jesus Christ” actually has begun to fall apart quickly, and we’ve barely begun examining Mormonism!

  • We have no eyewitnesses who saw the plates with thier own eyes, but rather, claim to have “seen them with spiritual eyes”… in other words, imagined it.
  • They are written in a non-existant language
  • A forbidden method was used to translate them
  • Joseph Smith did not know any Egyptian, but rather, knew English (and fairly well by today’s standards – his grammar was better than most High School graduates today, although it was considered average to poor by the standards of the 19th century)
  • The plates should have been written in Hebrew
  • The plates were never taken to an expert in Egyptology or Semitic Languages to confirm Smith’s discovery
  • The Angel Moroni could not have been an Angel, as human beings do not ever become Angels.
  • And why was Moroni not a god, in line with Mormon doctrine?

If Smith used a Satanic Method to find the plates, and a Satanic method to translate them, and refused to show them to people in violation of the Biblical commands to “shout it from the rooftops” and ” …be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15 KJV)…

Why did not the Angel Moroni immediately retrieve the plates, with a stern admonition? I would think that using Satanic methods would have angered God greatly!

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV)

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Author: philipdean2013

Seminary graduate with a Ba. in Theology/Pastoral Studies, Happily married, Independent Baptist. I can't keep silent about what I see going on in Christianity any longer! Apostasy reigns around us, churches are sliding into worldiness, a whitewashed Gospel is preached everywhere... "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. Jeremiah 6:16 (KJV) So, I'm speaking out. ...Why aren't you???

6 thoughts on “Mormonism Answered 4”

  1. Again, at least eight others saw and handled the plates, as they testify to. Their testimony is recorded and printed with every copy of the Book of Mormon. Have you read it?

    As to the language, have you actually read the Book of Mormon? If you did you would know that the people did speak in Hebrew, though after 1000 years of separation from the Middle East it had changed. They used Egyptian Characters because these took up less space than the Hebrew. The Egyptian, also altered after 1000 years of separation, would have likely been known by Lehi and his family, as many learned Jews of that time could read in write in Egyptian.
    Speaking to the seerstone, this is nothing more or less than the Urim and Thummim which the Bible itself declares are the instruments of seers. These are given by God to help Priests and others authorized to use them determine the will of God. It is obvious that when God commands us not to use divinations he is speaking of the practices that were used by many claiming to have understanding and power separate of God.

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    1. some of your information here is grossly incorrect… the urim and thummim of the Old Testament was not used in this way, but a lot system which was analogous to “Yes/no” answers. The Kohen pulled the urim and thumim out and indicated “yes” or “No”. THe entire going by lot through the tribes to find a single offender describes the Urim and Thummim. They were not spectacles.
      As for learned Jews knowing Egyptian… no, this is incorrect. Learned Jews eschewed the local languages, speaking in Hebrew at the time. They had absolutely no use for Egyptian outside of Egypt. Jews did not return to Egypt until the intertestamental period, when they settled in Alexandria. Egyptian was abandoned completely during the 40 years in the wilderness. By the time Joshua set his foot on Israel’s ground, few if any of that crowd could have remembered any Egyptian, as the adults all perished except for a few, like Joshua and Caleb. And after 40 years of not speaking a language, any language expert will tell you that if you don’t use it, you lose it.
      Holy writings have always been written in Hebrew by the Jewish people, with the exception of a few passages in Daniel that are in Aramaic. These were all written in the Paleolithic Hebrew up until the 2nd Temple period, by which time the square Canaanite script was used.

      Egyptian characters taking up less room than Hebrew… have you run this by a Rabbi to see his reaction? Jews have and continue to adhere to Hebrew, and the characters you’re referring to are not Egyptian, but as I pointed out, a mix of English letters inverted and backwards, with some greek letters mingled, according to those who’ve looked at samples. It doesn’t matter how much room Hebrew uses, they would have and continue to use it. And without separate letters for vowels, Hebrew really doesn’t use a lot of letters! “Philip” for instance is three letters in Hebrew!

      The Seerstone is not the Urim and Thummim, nor even similar.

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      1. Just prior to the Babylonian invasion Assyria and Egypt were in alliance and Judah was under the dominion of Assyria. A Jewish merchant would have likely done business with Egyptians, and would have likely known how to read and write their language.
        It is also evident that after Assyria fell the Jews fought with the Egyptians against Babylon, and may have even been under their dominion for a short time.
        Thus, during the time of Lehi Egypt and the Egyptian language would have known and would not have been uncommon among those who frequently interacted with the Egyptians. As Lehi is generally considered a merchant of some kind, and a successful one, he would have learned the Egyptian language for the purpose of his business.

        Now, for those of the house of Israel that lived in the Middle East they wrote in the Hebrew Language to keep their writings separate from the surrounding Heathens. Once the Nephites were in the Americas, and especially after 1000 years of separation, this would not have been a consideration anymore.

        Allow me to clarify my comment on the seerstone: There is a classification of devices provided by God to help men on earth. The seer stone, urim and thummim, and the interpreters are all individual devices belonging to this classification. It is apparent that early leaders of the church used the term urim and thummim to refer to the classification.
        However, the main point I was making is that what you are referring to as divination is what the Urim and Thummin were used for. They help the people divine the truth when such became necessary. Thus the command given by God had reference only to those practices that did not rely on him of the answer. Since Joseph Smith used the seer stone and other means simply as a way to communicate with God it was not a violation of this command, any more than Israel’s use of the Urim and Thummim was.
        Also note that what you describe as the use of this device is merely a tradition, but has no factual proof. The Urim and Thummim were lost sometime before the Babylonian Captivity and exactly how they were used is not recorded in any records now known.

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      2. The use of the Urim and Thummim is discussed in the Talmud Bavli.
        I’m going to tell you again, you’re completely wrong in your theory of Jews dropping the use of Hebrew for Egyptian.
        I’m going to repeat this so that you understand – Jews upon leaving Israel would have continued using Hebrew.
        All marriage contracts, divorce Gets must be written in Hebrew or they are not considered valid. That’s a bottom line. If I produced a family document written in Yiddish, the Rabbis would shake their heads and mutter.
        Anyone producing a conversion certificate written in Yiddish or Ladino would have it declared invalid by the Rabbis.
        A family lineage (Sefer Toldot) written in any language but Hebrew would be highly suspect, and dismissed by both priests and Rabbis.

        So, that issue is settled. Jews pray in Hebrew, and read the Torah in Hebrew. They write their legal documents in Hebrew. Jewish merchants may well have learned some of the other languages, but in the period your speaking of, Aramaic was beginning to be a dominant language in that culture – not Egypt. The houses of Egypt had collapsed except for a brief resurgence under Neko, and that was because the Lord raised them up.
        That centrality of Hebrew doesn’t get lost except for the very rare cases where they completely intermarry and assimilate into the culture, such as the Jews in China. Again I tell you, that they would have dropped the Egyptian, and forgotten it within four years of moving to America.

        Can you cite authority from the Bible for the existance and use of the Seer stone?

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  2. And let me state that I never once said they dropped Hebrew in favor of Egyptian. If you read the Book of Mormon you would know that they used both those languages. I stated that it is very likely that they new Egyptian, and so for them to use it in what was a private record is not unlikely. I am not talking about legal documents, nor am I talking about modern Jews. I am talking about a small group of Jews that lived 1600 years ago, at a time when dealing with the Egyptians was common.
    Your insistence that they would have dropped Egyptian is based on very little other than your desire for it. One of the main reasons the Jews in the old world held so tightly to Hebrew was to keep themselves separate from those around them. This would not have been a consideration in the New World.
    Show me one place in the Bible that forbids the use of Egyptian.

    Now, even in the Talmub Bavli they admit to never having seen the Urim and Thummim, but that it had been lost for 200 years and no one at that time knew what they looked liked or exactly how they were used, though they give their opinion as to it. This proves only that they were used, but does not give any proof as to how. They may have been used this way, but it doesn’t really matter. If they were used at all then their use constitutes a form of divination, which you point out was forbidden.

    As to the seer stone, I can give nothing you would accept. Revelation 2: 17 describes a white stone that is given, in which is written a new name. In John 1: 42 Christ names Simon Cephas, which means stone, or seer. These things to me clearly point to the existence of seer stones that are of divine origin and are given to man as a way of communicating with the eternal worlds. I understand that you will disagree with this, but that doesn’t make it any less clear to me.

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    1. Okay, let me deal with this one at a time. I’ve got to ask whether you actually researched this?
      My insistence that the Jews would never have dropped Hebrew has been explained by history and practice time and again – you’re so focused on the false information given by the LDS church you’re not paying attention!
      I’m basing this on (A) history (B)Jewish law and (C)Jewish custom. Once Jews depart a land THEY DROP THE COMMON VERNACULAR OF THAT LAND! Bottom line. That I was dotted, that T was crossed – Settled.
      Did you look up the references in the Talmud Bavli? It’s been years since I studied the Talmud, but I’ll say this in regards to how it works… I know about some things about my fathers home town because my father grew up there, and he told me. He knows about the town his father was from, because he told him. I know about these things because these things were passed down from eyewitnesses who saw them.
      Similarly, those of the tribe of Levi (of whom I know a few) told the Rabbis what the Urim and THummim were, and how they worked… and the Rabbi’s passed that on in the Talmud. Now, there is a lot of pagan practice mixed in the Talmud with the eyewitness accounts – I won’t argue that – but the historical stuff is considered valid by historians. I passed that on to you. you can choose to accept or disregard. It’s plain to me you are disregarding. Talmud Bavli, in both the Schottstien and Steinsaltz editions give details on how the Urim and THummim were used.

      Next, let’s talk about Simon Cephas. Cephas means a small stone. It does not mean Seer. SImon is Shimon in Hebrew, meaning “To hear” from the root “shema”.
      The word “Seer” can be found in neither one.
      The white stone of Revelation 2:17 is not used for Scrying or for treasure hunting or for fortune telling. there is no biblical example of a stone being used for interpreting any language. It’s purely a fiction.
      Neither of these things point out the existence of “Seer stones”.
      WHITE STONE. A stone Christ will give to the overcoming Christian. “To him that overcometh will I give … a white stone, and in
      the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it” (Re. 2:17). Dean Alford says this is “a revelation of
      his everlasting title as a son of God … Those personal marks and signs of God’s particular adoption of himself, which he and none
      else is acquainted with … the deep secret dealings of God with each of us during those times by which our sonship is assured and our
      spiritual strife carried on to victory, can, when revealed to us in the other blessed state, be known thoroughly to ourselves only.” (David Cloud, Way of Life Encyclopedia)

      I suggest you begin trying to read the Bible in context, without recoursing to any LDS materials. Go by what the BIBLE says! Read it literally, and believe what you read!

      I suggest you try to get to know the REAL Jesus Christ, the Lord, the Son of God who is God Himself, one third of the Trinity. The real one is not brother to Lucifer. The Real one alone can save your soul (John 14:6). PLEASE do youreslf that favor and TRY to get to know Him. You cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again (John 3:3).

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