Okay, let’s get this out of the way.
just about every mid-trib, post trib or no-trib website always brings up Margaret McDonald.
Okay, let’s get that out of the way.
We’re constantly pointing out that there is nobody alive convinced of the rapture because of Margaret McDonald. Todd Strandberg did an article a few years back, about how he finally searched for this legendary girl who claims to have had a mystic vision in which, for the first time, someone saw a pre-trib rapture.
Okay, research here is the key. Todd Strandberg reports it almost was a “Where’s Waldo?” search, except that in the “Where’s Waldo” puzzles, he’s always right there where you can see him. In this case, it’s clear NONE of these anti-Rapture advocates have EVER researched the claim. Or, extremely embarrassed, they’d have withdrawn the claim.
For starters, her “Vision” is post-trib.
“uhhhh… wait, I’d always heard she saw a pre-trib rapture.”
So, you guys have made SO MUCH about her vision – and you NEVER EVEN READ IT! What amazes me is that Roman Catholic apologists always make snide remarks about a vision… but if she’d been a Roman Catholic, and the Virgin Mary had been central in it, there’d be pilgrimages, flowers, rosary beads, candles and incense offered at the place of MacDonald’s birth! Look, if your religion thrives on visions, attacking a straw man of visions is ill advised. Glass houses, stones, all that.
What’s the vision?
“I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation. Now will the wicked one be revealed with all power…It will be a fiery trial…Nothing but what is of God will stand…I said, Now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth; and nothing but Christ in US can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive…This is the trial through which those are to pass, who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of Man…The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit – have the light of God within you, that you may DETECT satan…”
Um… this is post trib. That’s consistent with the teachings of the Irvingites, whom MacDonald belonged to. So, her prophecy was play-acting, to make her seem important – she’d learned their doctrine well, and to have her seeing a mystic vision that confirmed the teachings of the group was seized on. Amazingly, it reminds me of Seventh Day Adventism and Ellen G. White’s odd visions, that changed with the wind.
How can I say it’s post trib??? Well, the Irvingites were post trib. And MacDonald mentions the Antichrist, released in the first Seal – which is during the tribulation. “The trial of the church is from Antichrist… this is the trial through which those are to pass…”
Um… if the churchES are to be tried by the antichrist, well then, that places the rapture AFTER the Antichrist is done – which is at Christ’s second coming!
So… maybe Pre-Trib believers should be turning that around to attack post-tribbers, claiming “You all got it from the visions of a Scottish girl!” See how they like having to defend it!
There. Aren’t you post-tribbers embarrassed??? You made ALL THIS NOISE about MacDonald, viciously attacking that straw man argument… only to find out SHE SUPPORTS YOU, NOT PRE-TRIB BELIEVERS!
Next, we fail to see any quote from the person they say was the first advocate of the Pre-trib rapture, John Darby. Darby did advocate a pre-trib Rapture – but he tells how he was able to figure that out. It occurred to him as he studied the Bible that there was a difference between the churches and Israel. Once he’d understood that, it took little work to read through Revelation and see that suddenly the churches disappear from the earth, and God is working through Israel again. So, if there’s a difference between the churches and Israel, and Revelation starts out talking to the churches, then suddenly switches to Israel, and the churches cannot be found again until the end of Revelation – that means the BIBLE IS CLEARLY TEACHING THAT THE CHURCHES GO SOMEWHERE ELSE DURING ALMOST ALL OF REVELATION!
Sorry, don’t mean to shout, but the post-tribbers aren’t listening.
So, was Darby the first teacher of the Rapture?
Nope. A Southern Baptist preacher, who also agreed that MacDonald’s vision was post trib, first offered $500 for anyone who could offer proof of a pre trib rapture prior to 1830. He had to retract his offer when he found the writings of Emmanuel Lacunza. Lacunza taught it back in 1812. So the Baptist pastor, John Bray, offered the prize again, but this time before 1812.
He lost the money when someone gave him proofs of a book from 1744 published in England that taught a pre-trib rapture.
Well, what about this quote from before the year 370?
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overtake the world because of our sins.”
Ephraem of Nisibis wrote that, an early Christian writer of the Syrian Christians.
That’s.. a long time ago. It’s clearly pre-trib. Its clearly before the year 400. It’s an early Christian writer. And Juistin Martyr apparently was pre-trib as well, placing the teaching as far back as prior to AD 100.
Looks like the church was ALWAYS pre-trib, and that abandoning this belief was moving from the previously held position – apostasy.
Looks like you post-tribbers have some explaining to do.